amradio1989 an hour ago

I’m starting to think political definitions only have use as propaganda. Definitions are definite, yet political definitions are anything but.

In the US, much is made about “the left” and “the right”, but we can hardly describe what these things mean. “The left” is simply more liberal than I, while “the right” is more conservative than I. On what issues, no one knows, because we hardly ask.

The point, I think, is simply to label the opposition while hiding any commonality or points of agreement. Useful for propaganda, but useless for substantive political discourse; you know, the kind that underpins a healthy democracy.

  • dijit 3 minutes ago

    I'm not sure I agree here.

    There are "right wing issues" and "left wing issues" and there is friction between them.

    What concerns me most is political "slurs" where everyone forgets the meaning of the term but constantly throws it around as if it's just a bad word. Then the conversation just goes off the deep end as soon as they're invoked.

    "You're a wokie" or "you're a fascist"; as if either of the people using those terms even knows what they're referring to primarily, they just decided it's bad and because the person they're talking to is bad they must be whatever bad word I have in my vocabulary.

    PS: I will say that "woke" has a more concrete definition than fascist to many, but I don't want to be accussed of being for (or against) any particular side when writing this comment, and I can't come up with many off the top of my head that the right wingers use against the left wingers... so, sorry.

  • bilbo0s 12 minutes ago

    the kind that underpins a healthy democracy

    To be fair, this kind of presupposes that all actors in a polity actually have as their goal, "healthy democracy".

    Pretty sure that's not the goal of most people in power nowadays. (At least in the US it's not the goal of people in power.)

mallowdram 38 minutes ago

Try "Obsolescence of all Definitions"

Tom Givon used to say in class: "What true language requires a dictionary?"

Language is decontextualized in the West, it's about attributes of individual objects where simplifying laws are derived, rather than language used as interdependent.

At a certain point arbitrary language dissolves into meaninglessness. That's entropy and arbitrariness. As we accelerate language and primate status spirals the role of language is simply to dominate subjectively. It has no end point except for dissolution.

  • bonoboTP 3 minutes ago

    "Mathematics is what mathematicians study. Mathematicians are those who study mathematics."

c54 an hour ago

This reads to me as a somewhat quaint snapshot of politics from 30 years ago.

What the author is getting at is the overlapping of the bundles of individual policy stances that we give the label of a single ideology, the folding of the left-right political axis through higher dimensional space. People who agree on some things disagree on others and the old categories become less useful.

These days I think JREG is doing good work tracking political categories if you’re interested and don’t mind some irony-poisoned jargon check him out.

  • Pxtl an hour ago

    Yeah, I think we've all seen the term "socialism" prettymuch destroyed into having no coherent meaning beyond "when government does stuff" for as long as I can remember, for example.

    I mean, I've seen people decry market-oriented solutions to problems (eg congestion pricing) as "socialism" which is broadly hilarious.

lapcat an hour ago

In the United States, terms such as "conservative" and "liberal" seem to be used primarily to describe whatever currently happens to be popular in the duopolistic Republican and Democratic parties. I'm old enough now to have witnessed both parties, and the definitions of those terms, morph into something unrecognizable to partisans of my youth. And the (morbidly) funny thing is that people today call themselves "true conservatives," for example, apparently with no recollection or recognition of the recent past.

My own view is that the terms don't signify real, stable ideologies but rather just give the pretense that the duopolistic political parties are backed by ideologies rather than by constantly shifting power dynamics.

  • nradov an hour ago

    Modern US mainstream politics have become weirdly like the ancient Roman "Green" versus "Blue" political parties that evolved out of chariot racing fan clubs. No consistent ideology or underlying theory of government, just blind support for your chosen side's leaders.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/blue-versus-green-roc...

    • lapcat 30 minutes ago

      > No consistent ideology or underlying theory of government

      > just blind support for your chosen side's leaders.

      These are two different questions.

      I'm not sure whether the political parties should have consistent ideologies. Even if they did, it's impossible for two or even three or four political parties to represent the diverse political views of over 300 million Americans. Each of the two major US parties have always consisted of shifting coalitions of interests.

      On the other hand, loyal partisanship leads to the phenomenon that I described: inventing ideological terms as a kind of personal identity for the partisan, giving the pretense that their loyal partisanship is backed by consistent, stable views, when in fact the parties are demonstrably shifting coalitions of interests.

    • deltaburnt an hour ago

      I mean, there's very specific reasons either color gets support from their voters. I wouldn't say all of those reasons warrant the same amount of fervor, passion, and loyalty that they do. But "blind support" is a bit reductive when for some people it literally means their rights being stripped away.

      What appears to be "blind support" is people desperately clinging onto what tiny bit of representation they have. It's sad for both sides. It's Stockholm syndrome mixed with political pragmatism. It sucks, but the current political landscape in the US has entrenched itself so deeply in a local minima that people feel like they have to work backwards to make progress. Just see how any discussion of a third party is seen as a psyop to get that side to have a spoiler effect.

  • csours 41 minutes ago

    > give the pretense that the duopolistic political parties are backed by ideologies rather than by constantly shifting power dynamics.

    I feel like it's very easy to get angry about politics, so speaking clearly is difficult.

    I would like to point out that the power dynamics do not always shift randomly, or by the will of the people (be that citizens at large, or party-line voters). The power dynamics have been shifted with intention.

    Apart from that intentional push for power, we also have social media dynamics. It feels like online self-critique is always towards the extremes. Once someone becomes energized or activated on a topic, they may start to feel that even trying to understand other viewpoints will cause harm.

    • bonoboTP 20 minutes ago

      People want to belong to a tribe. I think it's often quite a tossup where a young person ends up, depending on friends or whichever online circle accepts them best. It's also not rare for young people to flipflop between nominally widely opposing tribes before setting into one. People gradually learn all the opinions they are supposed to have on the various issues to truly belong to the tribe. It's not unlike learning the dogmas of a religion. It's much much more convenient socially to speak the same language and have the same cultural references and opinions to bond over and feel camaraderie about and curate a bubble of friends following the same opinion-setters, vs. creating one's own grab-bag idiosyncratic set of opinions that doesn't fit neatly into either well known combo-deal. You gotta support either this football team or the other one. People who start to lecture about how they like the goalie of the one team, but the striker of the other are just "not fun at parties", are kind of annoying and hard to relate to, especially online where people decide in a split second whether to upvote or downvote based on a fast pattern matching check to my tribe / enemy tribe.

  • bonoboTP 31 minutes ago

    What tends to be more conceptually solid is temperament and personality, rather than ideology. That is, things like conformism, trust in paternalistic authority figures, or instinctual contrarianism and distrust of authority, and openness to new ways of doing things, optimism about tweaking the knobs on society vs a more static view of how people are, etc., making it yourself (individualism and atomisation) vs focus on collectivism / community orientedness / family obligations.

    For example, an old man with a conservative mentality in Russia may be nostalgic for Stalin and communism. Or someone who has a contrarian, disagreeable personality in a liberal American college environment may decide to become a monarchist or trad Christian to show the middle finger to the real authority figures in his life. And a conformist person in the US workforce would more likely absorb a corporate-HR-compatible (superficially?) progressive worldview.

  • skrebbel an hour ago

    Yeah wow huh! It took me many years of reading HN to figure out that “liberal” means “left” in the US. In my (European) country, the word means nearly the opposite, a belief in individual freedoms, free speech, free markets, small governments and so on. It’s mostly championed by right-of-center parties. I’ve been confused many times reading comments that go like “these liberals who want to ban free speech” which, to me, reads as funky as “these nazis who want to protect minority rights” or “these republicans who want to reinstate the monarchy”.

    It’s just, the word did a total 180 in the US and it’s super weird!

    • bee_rider 14 minutes ago

      Realistically the mainstream Democratic Party is liberal in the sense that you use it; the US is a fundamentally liberal place, a lot of Republicans are as well.

      Even the idea of “banning free speech” that you mention is implemented in a liberal fashion in the US. There are rarely calls for the government to actually ban speech via laws. The ground where that’s fought is actually “should private companies broadcast/highlight via algorithm the speech of individuals who say things I don’t like,” it is a formulation that pits the speech rights of the corporation against the self-expression of the individuals using their services.

      The framing you quoted (“these liberals who want to ban free speech”) is often used by one side to pitch the other side as falling outside the traditional liberal consensus.

      • AnimalMuppet 4 minutes ago

        > The framing you quoted (“these liberals who want to ban free speech”) is often used by one side to pitch the other side as falling outside the traditional liberal consensus.

        I disagree, at least a bit. I think "liberal" here is just used as "the bad tribe". It's not saying that they're not living up to their values, it's just saying that they're "them".

    • bonoboTP an hour ago

      In the US they call that right-leaning version "libertarian".

      • psunavy03 37 minutes ago

        Which is itself an ugly word because the Libertarian Party proper is mostly a bunch of kooks and cranks. So using it invites comparisons to them even if you only are proposing what the above poster was proposing.

      • skrebbel 42 minutes ago

        Nah the thing we call liberalism is much milder than that. It’s like the watered down, we-do-trust-the-government-but-maybe-tone-it-down-a-little version of libertarianism. I mean the same meaning as eg the Economist gives the term.

        I think maybe the term changed meaning in the US because for decades pretty much everyone agreed with it (no social democrats in sight, barring the occasional Bernie). A movement that ~everyone agrees with isn't much of a movement, is it?

        • AnimalMuppet 2 minutes ago

          It's a movement that won - won so thoroughly that nobody even remembers there was a war. But that means that, since nobody's fighting that war any more, the label (which has "winning" and even "being correct" attached to it in peoples' minds) is now up for grabs for other movements that want to win.

  • Gormo an hour ago

    The problem is that these terms do signify real, stable ideologies, but the vast majority of people are superficial trend-chasers who don't actually adhere to any stable ideology, so misuse these terms to refer to whichever tribe they emotionally associate themselves with at the moment.

    IMO, the current US administration seems to be the most left-wing in my lifetime, but contrived cultural wedge issues seem to have eclipsed actual policy positions in most public discourse, so gets called "conservative" despite its policies being almost the diametric opposite of what was called "conservative" 30 years ago.

    • dragonwriter 11 minutes ago

      > IMO, the current US administration seems to be the most left-wing in my lifetime

      Can you name even a single left-wing policy or rhetorical position of this administration?

      > but contrived cultural wedge issues seem to have eclipsed actual policy positions in most public discourse,

      “Cultural wedge issues” are about actual policy domains, and have a real left-right valence.

      > gets called "conservative" despite its policies being almost the diametric opposite of what was called "conservative" 30 years ago.

      30 years ago? The height of the neoliberal consensus when the Right leaned heavily on the cultural wedge issues of opposition to abortion, homosexuality, and affirmative action?

      (I guess it was also just after a midterm election where the Republican Party, being out of the White House for the first time in a while and having just taken a Congressional majority after mostly being in the minority for a generation was also emphasizing restraining government and elected officials more than the Right normally has before or since, but that was pretty obviously a tactical adaptation to the immediate circumstances, not the essence of conservatism.)

    • paulryanrogers an hour ago

      > IMO, the current US administration seems to be the most left-wing in my lifetime

      Can you elaborate?

      • Gormo 9 minutes ago

        Tax hikes on American consumers and businesses.

        Expansions in federal spending against growing budget deficits.

        Government pursuing ownership or de facto control of private industry.

        Aggressive use of executive fiat to pursue novel policies without clear legislative basis.

        Federal interventions that try to direct or challenge state sovereignty on numerous issues traditionally outside the scope of federal authority.

        Hesitant foreign policy that seems overly deferential to traditional US adversaries, especially Russia.

    • esafak an hour ago

      Trump is left of Carter, Obama, etc. ? How are you defining left-wing, exactly?

  • AnimalMuppet an hour ago

    In my perception, "true conservative" means "what the label meant in my youth, not what it has mutated to today". I think it is exactly a recognition of the past.

    • lapcat an hour ago

      I agree that this is the claim of self-described true conservatives. However, I think the claim is empirically false, and they do not actually follow what the label meant in our youth.

      • AnimalMuppet 13 minutes ago

        I think some actually do. And some follow what they thought it meant, or what they thought it should have meant.

mxmilkiib 8 minutes ago

"..summon “unsullied” socialism, a game with ever more variations, which long since has become confusing—and boring."

to quote a comment round, because it puts it better than I could;

"Murray Bookchin's concept of communalism and his follower Abdullah Öcalan's similar concept of democratic confederalism. It can be summed up as "refocusing politics around local government by popular assemblies, while higher levels of government being confederations of these local units". Thus communalism does mean there would still be a state, although far more decentralised. This was one reason why Bookchin stopped calling himself an anarchist, though his disillusionment with the '90s the anarchist scene was another."

libertarian municipalism, a libertarian socialism

with social ecology as the philosophy framing our situation

Post-Scarcity Anarchism (1971);

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/murray-bookchin-post...

adherence and supporters use the meme of "google Murray Bookchin", because once you get into their thinking so much of it makes good sense

and there's the adapted democratic confederalism of Ocalan, which is actually used in Rojava (Democratic Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria)

this is the group that was US aligned until Trump said no, which allowed Turkey to do a land grab and dispossess folk folk

https://youtu.be/V0Z2KGudYrA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_confederalism

http://ocalanbooks.com

  • mxmilkiib 3 minutes ago

    * "comment I found", missed edit cos I mildly broke my phone antispam VPN recently

josefritzishere 2 hours ago

This is an interesting read, and it makes me want to read more. But the intro could use some context. I have so many questions now.

  • lapcat an hour ago

    > But the intro could use some context.

    What do you mean by that?

0xbadcafebee an hour ago

Afaik, there are already specific political definitions. It's just that "the common man" isn't very educated in them, and the "language of politics" eschews logic and specificity in favor of generalization (in order to induce rancor and thus party-alignment).

Here is the political classification of the top 50 developed nations (I tried to organize them, but it's hard...):

    Qatar                 Absolute monarchy
    Oman                  Absolute monarchy
    Saudi Arabia          Absolute monarchy
    Brunei Darussalam     Absolute monarchy
    United Arab Emirates  Federal absolute monarchy
    Kuwait                Constitutional monarchy (emirate) with parliamentary elements
    Bahrain               Constitutional monarchy (unitary)
    United Kingdom        Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
    Netherlands           Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
    Japan                 Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
    Denmark               Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
    Norway                Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
    Sweden                Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
    Luxembourg            Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
    Spain                 Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
    Australia             Federal parliamentary constitutional monarchy
    Belgium               Federal parliamentary constitutional monarchy
    Canada                Federal parliamentary constitutional monarchy
    Liechtenstein         Hereditary constitutional monarchy with elements of direct democracy
    Croatia               Parliamentary republic
    Czechia               Parliamentary republic
    Estonia               Parliamentary republic
    Greece                Parliamentary republic
    Hungary               Parliamentary republic
    Israel                Parliamentary republic
    Italy                 Parliamentary republic
    Latvia                Parliamentary republic
    Lithuania             Parliamentary republic
    Poland                Parliamentary republic
    Slovakia              Parliamentary republic
    Slovenia              Parliamentary republic
    Finland               Parliamentary republic (semi-presidential features)
    Austria               Federal parliamentary republic
    Germany               Federal parliamentary republic
    Switzerland           Federal directorial republic (collegial executive of seven Federal Councilors)
    Andorra               Parliamentary co-principality (two Co-Princes: French President & Bishop of Urgell)
    Chile                 Presidential republic
    Portugal              Semi-presidential republic
    Argentina             Federal presidential republic
    United States         Federal presidential constitutional republic (representative democracy)
    Cyprus                Unitary presidential republic
    South Korea           Unitary presidential republic
    France                Unitary semi-presidential republic (Fifth Republic)
    Iceland               Unitary parliamentary republic
    Ireland               Unitary parliamentary republic
    Malta                 Unitary parliamentary republic
    Singapore             Unitary parliamentary republic
    New Zealand           Unitary parliamentary constitutional monarchy
    Hong Kong (China SAR) Special Administrative Region of China with “one country, two systems”
bpt3 an hour ago

The rise of populism, especially in the US, has accelerated the breakdown described here. It's difficult to place political parties or even individual politicians in neat boxes, which would be a benefit in some ways in theory if it wasn't really caused by the political parties (and one in particular) becoming completely unmoored from their historical platform and agenda.

These shifts have happened a few times in the past, and it'll be interesting to see how this one plays out.